r/Bitcoin: casino worker debunking dice-seed tutorial folklore
reddit-casino-dice-myths
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1vh0tzo/dont_do_that/
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A new comment was added arguing that dice are a poor entropy source for computers because a die has only six values, which introduces predictability.
edited: false
body:
what's wrong with /dev/random?
+
+comment: p2ma8fq
+parent: t3_1vh0tzo
+author: BrokenHefaistos
+created_utc: 1786269300
First lines only. The complete diff is in the timeline below.
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Held captures
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A new comment was added arguing that dice are a poor entropy source for computers because a die has only six values, which introduces predictability.
Recovered from the Internet Archive rather than captured by this project. The row records that third-party provenance separately from captures made by this project.
What changed from the previous capture 9 lines
edited: false body: what's wrong with /dev/random? + +comment: p2ma8fq +parent: t3_1vh0tzo +author: BrokenHefaistos +created_utc: 1786269300 +edited: false +body: +I can think of better ways to generate a seed, lol +If this was perfect then why arent there tiny dice in computers ? Maybe because a dice has only 6 values introducing predictability.Extracted text as captured
post: 1vh0tzo author: cheesymod created_utc: 1786013448 title: Don’t do that body: There are a bunch of videos now on youtube, teaching how to generate a seed phrase using dice, but two of them were particularly interesting. I won’t post their channel names or link to their channels. But one of the guys was a bitcoin guru, offering one on one sessions. The other one was just a random dude throwing dice. The first guy insisted on vigorously shaking the dice in your hand for at least 10 shakes before throwing them, then he proceeded to throw them on his desk, from about 15 - 20 cm distance. Not sure how much 15 - 20 cm is in American money. The other guy insisted on how important is to get specifically casino dice for your seed generation. He also emphasized how only proper casino dice can generate a truly random seed. As someone who worked in casinos for quite a while, this is the type of bs which can mislead you. First of all, wether you shake the dice at least 10 times or 10 000 times in your hand doesn’t really matter, but it matters if you throw them on your desk, barely letting them roll, versus throwing them on your carpet and letting them bounce around. The craps table where dice are thrown (all tables have this soft padding), is covered with a soft padded foam, which allows the dice to bounce. So you’d better of throwing them literally on your carpet, or maybe straightening the linen and throwing them on your bed. Second, the “you must get genuine casino dice, or your seed is not random.” Also false. Just because you can buy proper casino dice from a casino supply store, doesn’t mean they will be properly balanced. Hence why every casino checks the dice every single time before they the replace them. We did have a small machine to check each dice individually to make sure they are balanced before it ever is allowed to touch the table. A machine which is expensive and most people don’t have at home. Not to speak that if you ever go with such “proper casino dice” setup, you HAVE to replace the dice after generating some seeds, because the dice might get unbalanced at that point. What I’m saying here is, just because someone showed you something that sounds good, and they sound convincing, doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Btw, one of the creators in question, made this dice to seed generation tutorial on ac ColdCard Q, which is even more ironic. Then one of his next videos was how you should stop using ColdCards. If you decide to generate your seed using dice, go ahead and do it. But read just a tiny bit about what makes the dice roll random. Then you can generate your seed and import it to whatever device you decide. comment: p21atmg parent: t3_1vh0tzo author: Ill-Party8305 created_utc: 1786013873 edited: false body: people are afraid with imperfection of the dice etc etc. Just use 3-5 dice, roll all them together, pick one random. This should balance or cancel out minor imperfection of the dice in the long run comment: p21ay0l parent: t1_p21atmg author: read_more_comments created_utc: 1786013923 edited: false body: you can ask ai about it - even if your dice are loaded, it's still random and still pretty good. you'd need it loaded to about 70% hitting one face for it to hurt. comment: p21c9cf parent: t1_p21atmg author: Plus_Process_5749 created_utc: 1786014451 edited: false body: Unless the imperfection is so relevant to cause an higher probability to see always the same dice faces, also the imperfection ITSELF is a source of randomness. How many imperfections like that on a dice like that do people really think exist in the world? It actually increases entropy. comment: p21dine parent: t1_p21atmg author: _2fExcerpt only. The complete copy is held offline and backs quotations on this site. The original publication remains the canonical public source.
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The Reddit thread gained a new participant comment asking what is wrong with /dev/random.
Recovered from the Internet Archive rather than captured by this project. The row records that third-party provenance separately from captures made by this project.
What changed from the previous capture 8 lines
edited: false body: Even if it causes a half of your throws to land on the same number, until somebody knows that you have used this specific dice with this specific imperfection and starts targeting specifically you - it's still secure. + +comment: p2eklht +parent: t3_1vh0tzo +author: sinkingduckfloats +created_utc: 1786164215 +edited: false +body: +what's wrong with /dev/random?Extracted text as captured
post: 1vh0tzo author: cheesymod created_utc: 1786013448 title: Don’t do that body: There are a bunch of videos now on youtube, teaching how to generate a seed phrase using dice, but two of them were particularly interesting. I won’t post their channel names or link to their channels. But one of the guys was a bitcoin guru, offering one on one sessions. The other one was just a random dude throwing dice. The first guy insisted on vigorously shaking the dice in your hand for at least 10 shakes before throwing them, then he proceeded to throw them on his desk, from about 15 - 20 cm distance. Not sure how much 15 - 20 cm is in American money. The other guy insisted on how important is to get specifically casino dice for your seed generation. He also emphasized how only proper casino dice can generate a truly random seed. As someone who worked in casinos for quite a while, this is the type of bs which can mislead you. First of all, wether you shake the dice at least 10 times or 10 000 times in your hand doesn’t really matter, but it matters if you throw them on your desk, barely letting them roll, versus throwing them on your carpet and letting them bounce around. The craps table where dice are thrown (all tables have this soft padding), is covered with a soft padded foam, which allows the dice to bounce. So you’d better of throwing them literally on your carpet, or maybe straightening the linen and throwing them on your bed. Second, the “you must get genuine casino dice, or your seed is not random.” Also false. Just because you can buy proper casino dice from a casino supply store, doesn’t mean they will be properly balanced. Hence why every casino checks the dice every single time before they the replace them. We did have a small machine to check each dice individually to make sure they are balanced before it ever is allowed to touch the table. A machine which is expensive and most people don’t have at home. Not to speak that if you ever go with such “proper casino dice” setup, you HAVE to replace the dice after generating some seeds, because the dice might get unbalanced at that point. What I’m saying here is, just because someone showed you something that sounds good, and they sound convincing, doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Btw, one of the creators in question, made this dice to seed generation tutorial on ac ColdCard Q, which is even more ironic. Then one of his next videos was how you should stop using ColdCards. If you decide to generate your seed using dice, go ahead and do it. But read just a tiny bit about what makes the dice roll random. Then you can generate your seed and import it to whatever device you decide. comment: p21atmg parent: t3_1vh0tzo author: Ill-Party8305 created_utc: 1786013873 edited: false body: people are afraid with imperfection of the dice etc etc. Just use 3-5 dice, roll all them together, pick one random. This should balance or cancel out minor imperfection of the dice in the long run comment: p21ay0l parent: t1_p21atmg author: read_more_comments created_utc: 1786013923 edited: false body: you can ask ai about it - even if your dice are loaded, it's still random and still pretty good. you'd need it loaded to about 70% hitting one face for it to hurt. comment: p21c9cf parent: t1_p21atmg author: Plus_Process_5749 created_utc: 1786014451 edited: false body: Unless the imperfection is so relevant to cause an higher probability to see always the same dice faces, also the imperfection ITSELF is a source of randomness. How many imperfections like that on a dice like that do people really think exist in the world? It actually increases entropy. comment: p21dine parent: t1_p21atmg author: _2fExcerpt only. The complete copy is held offline and backs quotations on this site. The original publication remains the canonical public source.
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The Reddit thread gained three new participant comments about dice entropy and tutorial folklore.
Recovered from the Internet Archive rather than captured by this project. The row records that third-party provenance separately from captures made by this project.
What changed from the previous capture 24 lines
edited: false body: True and as others have said it doesn't rule out the chance of still coming up with any possible seed. Whereas the PRNG of CC device was actually limiting what could be generated so making things very easy for hackers + +comment: p2bzy57 +parent: t1_p23nnpp +author: pythosynthesis +created_utc: 1786133332 +edited: false +body: +Tree fiddy. + +comment: p2cahhj +parent: t1_p21atmg +author: Deto +created_utc: 1786136202 +edited: false +body: +yeah, the more rules and process around this people emphasize the more likely it is that someone doesn't bother. Even rolling the dice in a way that they bounce...I doubt a person could really reduce their entropy by that much unless they were _trying_ to roll in a dumb way. + +comment: p2cn6a3 +parent: t1_p21c9cf +author: Gesha24 +created_utc: 1786139900 +edited: false +body: +Even if it causes a half of your throws to land on the same number, until somebody knows that you have used this specific dice with this specific imperfection and starts targeting specifically you - it's still secure.Extracted text as captured
post: 1vh0tzo author: cheesymod created_utc: 1786013448 title: Don’t do that body: There are a bunch of videos now on youtube, teaching how to generate a seed phrase using dice, but two of them were particularly interesting. I won’t post their channel names or link to their channels. But one of the guys was a bitcoin guru, offering one on one sessions. The other one was just a random dude throwing dice. The first guy insisted on vigorously shaking the dice in your hand for at least 10 shakes before throwing them, then he proceeded to throw them on his desk, from about 15 - 20 cm distance. Not sure how much 15 - 20 cm is in American money. The other guy insisted on how important is to get specifically casino dice for your seed generation. He also emphasized how only proper casino dice can generate a truly random seed. As someone who worked in casinos for quite a while, this is the type of bs which can mislead you. First of all, wether you shake the dice at least 10 times or 10 000 times in your hand doesn’t really matter, but it matters if you throw them on your desk, barely letting them roll, versus throwing them on your carpet and letting them bounce around. The craps table where dice are thrown (all tables have this soft padding), is covered with a soft padded foam, which allows the dice to bounce. So you’d better of throwing them literally on your carpet, or maybe straightening the linen and throwing them on your bed. Second, the “you must get genuine casino dice, or your seed is not random.” Also false. Just because you can buy proper casino dice from a casino supply store, doesn’t mean they will be properly balanced. Hence why every casino checks the dice every single time before they the replace them. We did have a small machine to check each dice individually to make sure they are balanced before it ever is allowed to touch the table. A machine which is expensive and most people don’t have at home. Not to speak that if you ever go with such “proper casino dice” setup, you HAVE to replace the dice after generating some seeds, because the dice might get unbalanced at that point. What I’m saying here is, just because someone showed you something that sounds good, and they sound convincing, doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Btw, one of the creators in question, made this dice to seed generation tutorial on ac ColdCard Q, which is even more ironic. Then one of his next videos was how you should stop using ColdCards. If you decide to generate your seed using dice, go ahead and do it. But read just a tiny bit about what makes the dice roll random. Then you can generate your seed and import it to whatever device you decide. comment: p21atmg parent: t3_1vh0tzo author: Ill-Party8305 created_utc: 1786013873 edited: false body: people are afraid with imperfection of the dice etc etc. Just use 3-5 dice, roll all them together, pick one random. This should balance or cancel out minor imperfection of the dice in the long run comment: p21ay0l parent: t1_p21atmg author: read_more_comments created_utc: 1786013923 edited: false body: you can ask ai about it - even if your dice are loaded, it's still random and still pretty good. you'd need it loaded to about 70% hitting one face for it to hurt. comment: p21c9cf parent: t1_p21atmg author: Plus_Process_5749 created_utc: 1786014451 edited: false body: Unless the imperfection is so relevant to cause an higher probability to see always the same dice faces, also the imperfection ITSELF is a source of randomness. How many imperfections like that on a dice like that do people really think exist in the world? It actually increases entropy. comment: p21dine parent: t1_p21atmg author: _2fExcerpt only. The complete copy is held offline and backs quotations on this site. The original publication remains the canonical public source.
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The thread gained new comments on dice bias, the difficulty of exploiting physical imperfections, and the difference between dice entropy and the COLDCARD PRNG's limited search space.
Recovered from the Internet Archive rather than captured by this project. The row records that third-party provenance separately from captures made by this project.
What changed from the previous capture 38 lines
edited: false body: You think you're very funny + +comment: p29hy5u +parent: t1_p23sl1p +author: EclecticKant +created_utc: 1786109760 +edited: false +body: +Everything you add to a truly random event can only make it less random, a perfectly balanced dice that rolls correctly is theoretically perfectly random, every imperfection that changes that can only make things worse. +In this case those imperfections are too hard to predict, so the event stays random anyway, but it van have some patterns that we can't detect + +comment: p29md9v +parent: t1_p226q1e +author: Sitonyourhandsnclap +created_utc: 1786111002 +edited: false +body: +Yea I wondered this too. Wouldn't someone have to actually take your dice and do analysis on them like 10k, 100k maybe even 1million rolls in order to determine an observable bias then use that information to determine what seeds are more likely to have been generated with those dice? Or is it simply the case that they tweak settings for say a dice that rolls a 1 slightly more (say 10%) than any other number, then look for seeds. Then adjust percentages, look again for seeds. Adjust for the number 2 being more favourable etc. + +comment: p29nqep +parent: t1_p29md9v +author: togetherwem0m0 +created_utc: 1786111379 +edited: false +body: +yes someone would have to get the dice used and conduct their own rolls to determine any bias. even then, the test rolls would occur after the original seed generation and because of physical imperfections created by the analysis itself, the analysis would drift from the original rolls. + +even then, dice rolling involves rolling more dice than you "use" because when you roll 6 dice you select 1 randomly, so whatever bias there is in a dice set is reduced/spread across the number of dice you use. + + +its a very effective source of real entropy. + +comment: p29pauf +parent: t1_p29nqep +author: Sitonyourhandsnclap +created_utc: 1786111811 +edited: false +body: +True and as others have said it doesn't rule out the chance of still coming up with any possible seed. Whereas the PRNG of CC device was actually limiting what could be generated so making things very easy for hackersExtracted text as captured
post: 1vh0tzo author: cheesymod created_utc: 1786013448 title: Don’t do that body: There are a bunch of videos now on youtube, teaching how to generate a seed phrase using dice, but two of them were particularly interesting. I won’t post their channel names or link to their channels. But one of the guys was a bitcoin guru, offering one on one sessions. The other one was just a random dude throwing dice. The first guy insisted on vigorously shaking the dice in your hand for at least 10 shakes before throwing them, then he proceeded to throw them on his desk, from about 15 - 20 cm distance. Not sure how much 15 - 20 cm is in American money. The other guy insisted on how important is to get specifically casino dice for your seed generation. He also emphasized how only proper casino dice can generate a truly random seed. As someone who worked in casinos for quite a while, this is the type of bs which can mislead you. First of all, wether you shake the dice at least 10 times or 10 000 times in your hand doesn’t really matter, but it matters if you throw them on your desk, barely letting them roll, versus throwing them on your carpet and letting them bounce around. The craps table where dice are thrown (all tables have this soft padding), is covered with a soft padded foam, which allows the dice to bounce. So you’d better of throwing them literally on your carpet, or maybe straightening the linen and throwing them on your bed. Second, the “you must get genuine casino dice, or your seed is not random.” Also false. Just because you can buy proper casino dice from a casino supply store, doesn’t mean they will be properly balanced. Hence why every casino checks the dice every single time before they the replace them. We did have a small machine to check each dice individually to make sure they are balanced before it ever is allowed to touch the table. A machine which is expensive and most people don’t have at home. Not to speak that if you ever go with such “proper casino dice” setup, you HAVE to replace the dice after generating some seeds, because the dice might get unbalanced at that point. What I’m saying here is, just because someone showed you something that sounds good, and they sound convincing, doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Btw, one of the creators in question, made this dice to seed generation tutorial on ac ColdCard Q, which is even more ironic. Then one of his next videos was how you should stop using ColdCards. If you decide to generate your seed using dice, go ahead and do it. But read just a tiny bit about what makes the dice roll random. Then you can generate your seed and import it to whatever device you decide. comment: p21atmg parent: t3_1vh0tzo author: Ill-Party8305 created_utc: 1786013873 edited: false body: people are afraid with imperfection of the dice etc etc. Just use 3-5 dice, roll all them together, pick one random. This should balance or cancel out minor imperfection of the dice in the long run comment: p21ay0l parent: t1_p21atmg author: read_more_comments created_utc: 1786013923 edited: false body: you can ask ai about it - even if your dice are loaded, it's still random and still pretty good. you'd need it loaded to about 70% hitting one face for it to hurt. comment: p21c9cf parent: t1_p21atmg author: Plus_Process_5749 created_utc: 1786014451 edited: false body: Unless the imperfection is so relevant to cause an higher probability to see always the same dice faces, also the imperfection ITSELF is a source of randomness. How many imperfections like that on a dice like that do people really think exist in the world? It actually increases entropy. comment: p21dine parent: t1_p21atmg author: _2fExcerpt only. The complete copy is held offline and backs quotations on this site. The original publication remains the canonical public source.
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New comment by 10kpizza: "You think you're very funny".
Recovered from the Internet Archive rather than captured by this project. The row records that third-party provenance separately from captures made by this project.
What changed from the previous capture 8 lines
Digital signing is where you have some open kimono going on, but you can still preplan this and prepare it offline. I've done 90% of my crypto-related interactions this way. It's time-consuming, mundane, and annoying. But ultimately, my stacks of hand written index cards have kept me safer than hardware wallets. + +comment: p29069t +parent: t1_p229hwi +author: 10kpizza +created_utc: 1786104195 +edited: false +body: +You think you're very funnyExtracted text as captured
post: 1vh0tzo author: cheesymod created_utc: 1786013448 title: Don’t do that body: There are a bunch of videos now on youtube, teaching how to generate a seed phrase using dice, but two of them were particularly interesting. I won’t post their channel names or link to their channels. But one of the guys was a bitcoin guru, offering one on one sessions. The other one was just a random dude throwing dice. The first guy insisted on vigorously shaking the dice in your hand for at least 10 shakes before throwing them, then he proceeded to throw them on his desk, from about 15 - 20 cm distance. Not sure how much 15 - 20 cm is in American money. The other guy insisted on how important is to get specifically casino dice for your seed generation. He also emphasized how only proper casino dice can generate a truly random seed. As someone who worked in casinos for quite a while, this is the type of bs which can mislead you. First of all, wether you shake the dice at least 10 times or 10 000 times in your hand doesn’t really matter, but it matters if you throw them on your desk, barely letting them roll, versus throwing them on your carpet and letting them bounce around. The craps table where dice are thrown (all tables have this soft padding), is covered with a soft padded foam, which allows the dice to bounce. So you’d better of throwing them literally on your carpet, or maybe straightening the linen and throwing them on your bed. Second, the “you must get genuine casino dice, or your seed is not random.” Also false. Just because you can buy proper casino dice from a casino supply store, doesn’t mean they will be properly balanced. Hence why every casino checks the dice every single time before they the replace them. We did have a small machine to check each dice individually to make sure they are balanced before it ever is allowed to touch the table. A machine which is expensive and most people don’t have at home. Not to speak that if you ever go with such “proper casino dice” setup, you HAVE to replace the dice after generating some seeds, because the dice might get unbalanced at that point. What I’m saying here is, just because someone showed you something that sounds good, and they sound convincing, doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Btw, one of the creators in question, made this dice to seed generation tutorial on ac ColdCard Q, which is even more ironic. Then one of his next videos was how you should stop using ColdCards. If you decide to generate your seed using dice, go ahead and do it. But read just a tiny bit about what makes the dice roll random. Then you can generate your seed and import it to whatever device you decide. comment: p21atmg parent: t3_1vh0tzo author: Ill-Party8305 created_utc: 1786013873 edited: false body: people are afraid with imperfection of the dice etc etc. Just use 3-5 dice, roll all them together, pick one random. This should balance or cancel out minor imperfection of the dice in the long run comment: p21ay0l parent: t1_p21atmg author: read_more_comments created_utc: 1786013923 edited: false body: you can ask ai about it - even if your dice are loaded, it's still random and still pretty good. you'd need it loaded to about 70% hitting one face for it to hurt. comment: p21c9cf parent: t1_p21atmg author: Plus_Process_5749 created_utc: 1786014451 edited: false body: Unless the imperfection is so relevant to cause an higher probability to see always the same dice faces, also the imperfection ITSELF is a source of randomness. How many imperfections like that on a dice like that do people really think exist in the world? It actually increases entropy. comment: p21dine parent: t1_p21atmg author: _2fExcerpt only. The complete copy is held offline and backs quotations on this site. The original publication remains the canonical public source.
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Recovered from the Internet Archive rather than captured by this project. The row records that third-party provenance separately from captures made by this project.
What changed from the previous capture 0 lines
Extracted text as captured
post: 1vh0tzo author: cheesymod created_utc: 1786013448 title: Don’t do that body: There are a bunch of videos now on youtube, teaching how to generate a seed phrase using dice, but two of them were particularly interesting. I won’t post their channel names or link to their channels. But one of the guys was a bitcoin guru, offering one on one sessions. The other one was just a random dude throwing dice. The first guy insisted on vigorously shaking the dice in your hand for at least 10 shakes before throwing them, then he proceeded to throw them on his desk, from about 15 - 20 cm distance. Not sure how much 15 - 20 cm is in American money. The other guy insisted on how important is to get specifically casino dice for your seed generation. He also emphasized how only proper casino dice can generate a truly random seed. As someone who worked in casinos for quite a while, this is the type of bs which can mislead you. First of all, wether you shake the dice at least 10 times or 10 000 times in your hand doesn’t really matter, but it matters if you throw them on your desk, barely letting them roll, versus throwing them on your carpet and letting them bounce around. The craps table where dice are thrown (all tables have this soft padding), is covered with a soft padded foam, which allows the dice to bounce. So you’d better of throwing them literally on your carpet, or maybe straightening the linen and throwing them on your bed. Second, the “you must get genuine casino dice, or your seed is not random.” Also false. Just because you can buy proper casino dice from a casino supply store, doesn’t mean they will be properly balanced. Hence why every casino checks the dice every single time before they the replace them. We did have a small machine to check each dice individually to make sure they are balanced before it ever is allowed to touch the table. A machine which is expensive and most people don’t have at home. Not to speak that if you ever go with such “proper casino dice” setup, you HAVE to replace the dice after generating some seeds, because the dice might get unbalanced at that point. What I’m saying here is, just because someone showed you something that sounds good, and they sound convincing, doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Btw, one of the creators in question, made this dice to seed generation tutorial on ac ColdCard Q, which is even more ironic. Then one of his next videos was how you should stop using ColdCards. If you decide to generate your seed using dice, go ahead and do it. But read just a tiny bit about what makes the dice roll random. Then you can generate your seed and import it to whatever device you decide. comment: p21atmg parent: t3_1vh0tzo author: Ill-Party8305 created_utc: 1786013873 edited: false body: people are afraid with imperfection of the dice etc etc. Just use 3-5 dice, roll all them together, pick one random. This should balance or cancel out minor imperfection of the dice in the long run comment: p21ay0l parent: t1_p21atmg author: read_more_comments created_utc: 1786013923 edited: false body: you can ask ai about it - even if your dice are loaded, it's still random and still pretty good. you'd need it loaded to about 70% hitting one face for it to hurt. comment: p21c9cf parent: t1_p21atmg author: Plus_Process_5749 created_utc: 1786014451 edited: false body: Unless the imperfection is so relevant to cause an higher probability to see always the same dice faces, also the imperfection ITSELF is a source of randomness. How many imperfections like that on a dice like that do people really think exist in the world? It actually increases entropy. comment: p21dine parent: t1_p21atmg author: _2fExcerpt only. The complete copy is held offline and backs quotations on this site. The original publication remains the canonical public source.
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